In this episode, Andrew speaks with Scott Barry Kaufman about transcendence, humanism, and what Abraham Maslow would have thought about meaningful work today.
Scott has done groundbreaking research on intelligence, creativity, and human potential. He is the founder and director of the Center for Human Potential and the founder of Self-Actualization Coaching. Scott is interested in using his research, podcast, teaching, and coaching to help all minds live a creative, fulfilling, and self-actualized life. His early educational experiences made him realize the deep reservoir of untapped potential of students, including bright and creative children diagnosed with a learning disability.
Over the last few years, Scott has dug deep into the work of Abraham Maslow. In this conversation, we hear why Maslow never would have described our human needs as a pyramid. Instead, our journey to self-actualization and transcendence is more like a sailboat. The hull represents our needs for safety, connection, and self-esteem — keeping us floating on top of the water. Our sails fueled by exploration, purpose, and love — provide us a system of growth that allows us to travel great distances.
As the conversation deepens, Scott shares Maslow's vision for the psychology of the peace table, reflecting on the urgent need to understand human nature, division, and the potential for peace. The episode resonates with wisdom, challenging listeners to reconsider their perspectives on work, growth, and the profound possibilities embedded in meaningful living.
Potential and Limiting Beliefs
Kaufman's interpretation of Maslow's work focuses on being 'fully human' rather than just self-actualized. A central theme here is the concept of potential. Kaufman critiques the conventional, limiting notions of potential shaped by societal influences like education and management and advocates for a more dynamic understanding of potential, emphasizing hope and the importance of recognizing individuals' diverse and often hidden potential. This perspective encourages professionals to look beyond traditional markers of success and see potential as a constantly evolving attribute.
The Sailboat Metaphor: A Journey of Self-Actualization
Kaufman introduces the sailboat metaphor to describe Maslow’s journey of self-actualization. Unlike the pyramid, a sailboat represents the dynamic balance between safety and growth needs. The boat's hull is our system of security, made up of our needs for safety, connection, and self-esteem. This keeps us floating on the water, brings stability, and establishes the vessel for our journey toward self-actualization. The boat's sails are our growth system, made of our needs for purpose, exploration, and love - giving us the power to travel great distances on our journey.
Illustration by Andy Ogden
Kaufman underscores the importance of viewing these elements as part of an integrated system, where each aspect influences and is influenced by the others.
Theory Z
When Maslow was writing, there were debates about Theory X vs. Theory Y in the management literature. Theory X posited that workers are best motivated by a carrot-and-stick approach — punishment for poor performance and rewards for good performance. In contrast, Theory Y suggested that workers are intrinsically motivated and perform best when internally rewarded. Maslow introduced Theory Z, suggesting that workers are motivated by transcendence. This theory implies that beyond extrinsic rewards (Theory X) and intrinsic motivation (Theory Y), there is a higher level of motivation where workers are driven by the desire to achieve self-actualization and to align their work with their highest values. Maslow saw that work could be a place that nurtured human potential, self-actualization, and the integration of personal growth.
Final Thoughts
Reflecting on Maslow's vision, Kaufman discusses the "psychology of the peace table." Just after Pearl Harbor, Maslow witnessed a parade and felt a profound sense of not understanding the forces that drive human conflict, such as the motivations of Hitler, Stalin, and others. This moment made Maslow realize that he wanted to devote the rest of his life to understanding the psychology of peace. Maslow envisioned a peace table where people would sit and discuss human nature, hatred, war, peace, and brotherhood. This vision was driven by the belief that understanding these fundamental aspects of human nature could lead to progress in achieving peace. The psychology of the peace table implies a deep exploration into the aspects of human nature that lead to conflict and division, as well as those that can foster peace and unity. This is the ultimate meaningful work - work that has never been more needed for us as people or for the planet.
For those seeking further exploration:
"Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization" by Scott Barry Kaufman
Jane E. Dutton's work on high-quality connections in the workplace - link
The Psychology Podcast with Scott Barry Kaufman