Indigenous Perspectives on Meaningful Work: Lessons from Adam Murry and Alvan Yuan

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren sits down with two researchers who are enhancing our understanding of meaningful work through an Indigenous lens.

Dr. Adam Murry, an associate professor of psychology at the University of Calgary with Ukrainian, Irish, and Apache heritage, and his graduate student Alvan Yuan, a Canadian of Taiwanese descent, offer an exploration of Indigenous perspectives in workplace settings.

Drawing from their extensive research in post-secondary institutions, Murray and Yuan go beyond describing workplace experiences. They provide a comprehensive analysis that challenges existing paradigms of meaningful work, offering practical insights for leaders and organizations seeking to create more inclusive, purposeful work environments.

Their study explores the complex ways Indigenous faculty and staff in post-secondary institutions define, experience, and navigate professional purpose, while also presenting actionable strategies for organizational transformation.

The Research Journey

The conversation begins with the backstory of their research, which emerged from a critical question posed by university leadership: How can we retain and support Indigenous faculty and staff?

Murry explains that this wasn't just another academic exercise, but a deeply purposeful investigation prompted by concerns about Indigenous employees being recruited away from their institutions.

The researchers interviewed 18 Indigenous faculty and staff from universities across Western Canada, focusing on understanding their experiences of meaningful work. Their approach was deliberately collaborative, rooted in Murry's long-standing commitment to research that genuinely serves Indigenous communities.

Redefining Meaningful Work

Through their interviews, Murry and Yuan uncovered an holistic understanding of meaningful work that extends far beyond traditional workplace metrics. For the Indigenous employees the spoke with, work is intrinsically linked to broader concepts of community, ancestry, and collective purpose.

Three key dimensions emerged as central to their sense of meaningful work:

1 Generational Belonging - seeing work as a continuation of ancestral labor and a service to both current and future generations. This perspective transforms work from an individual pursuit to a collective journey of community advancement.

2 Connectedness - not just to immediate colleagues, but to community, land, and cultural context. This connectedness is far more comprehensive than typical workplace understanding of team dynamics.

3 Job Design - finding meaning in work that directly aligns with Indigenous causes or personal cultural beliefs. The job itself becomes a vehicle for cultural preservation and community empowerment.

The Invisible Labor of Indigenous Professionals

Murry and Yuan don't shy away from naming the systemic challenges Indigenous employees face.

They describe what they term the "minority tax" - an invisible burden of additional unrecognized labor. Indigenous faculty and staff are simultaneously expected to represent entire Indigenous experiences while managing traditional job responsibilities, all while confronting deep-rooted colonial structures within institutions.

The researchers highlight a critical tension: organizations frequently seek to leverage Indigenous employees' community-driven values without providing adequate support, recognition, or compensation.

This dynamic often leads to burnout, frustration, and a sense of exploitation.

Pathways to Organizational Transformation

The research offers compelling recommendations for meaningful change. Murry and Yuan advocate for a radical reimagining of workplace structures that goes beyond surface-level diversity initiatives.

Key strategies include:

• Providing genuine job crafting opportunities

• Encoding community-focused work into formal job descriptions

• Creating promotion criteria that truly recognize Indigenous contributions

• Allowing Indigenous employees to define decolonization on their own terms

Decolonization as a Workplace Journey

The researchers frame meaningful work as a potential avenue for reconciliation - a space where systemic barriers can be challenged and transformed.

They draw on the powerful insight that decolonization is not just an institutional mandate, but a deeply personal process of reclaiming narrative and purpose.

Conclusion

Murry and Yuan invite us to expand our understanding of meaningful work.

They challenge us to recognize that career purpose is a deeply personal journey shaped by cultural context, historical experiences, and collective aspirations.

For organizations seeking greater diversity, equity, and inclusion, this research offers a transformative roadmap - one that honors the rich, multifaceted experiences of Indigenous professionals and reimagines workplace culture through a lens of genuine respect and mutual understanding.

Resources Mentioned

• Indigenous Organizations and Communities Research Lab at the University of Calgary

• "Decolonization is Not a Metaphor" by Tuck and Yang (2012)

• Native American Rehabilitation Association (NARA) in Portland

• Indigenous Primary Health Care and Policy Research (IPHCPR) Network of Alberta

Beyond Perfect Performance: Lessons from Sonya Looney

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren explores the intricate relationship between perfectionism and meaningful work with Sonya Looney, a unique voice at the intersection of elite performance and well-being. As a World Champion mountain biker with two decades of endurance racing experience, NBC-HWC-certified mental performance coach, and researcher, Looney brings both scientific rigor and lived experience to the conversation. Her unique combination of athletic achievement, coaching expertise, and interdisciplinary education allows her to offer distinctive insights into resilience, healthy striving, and the complex dynamics of perfectionism in high-performance settings.

Understanding Perfectionism in High Achievement

Looney introduces perfectionism through the multi-dimensional model developed by Flett and Hewitt, which identifies three key dimensions:

"We're perfectionistic in three ways: We have very high standards for ourselves, we have very high standards for other people, or we expect to meet other people's standards, society's standards, someone else's standards."

This framework helps explain why many high achievers struggle to find satisfaction in their accomplishments, often experiencing what Looney describes as "excessive striving, self-validation through goals, and difficulty in realizing a sense of accomplishment."

The Paradox of Performance and Purpose

One of the most striking insights from the episode is how perfectionism can actually undermine the meaningful aspects of work.

Through her personal journey as an elite athlete, Looney discovered that her most fulfilling moments weren't tied to race victories or performance metrics, but rather to the impact she had on others.

"If I win a race, I don't really care anymore. It's more how can I use this experience? How can I use my bike racing as a laboratory to help other people unlock their potential and find fulfillment in the process?"

From Personal Achievement to Social Impact

Looney's research reveals a shift in how we might approach goal-setting and achievement.

She introduces the concept of "meaningful other-ish goals," building on Adam Grant and Reb Rebele's work on "other-ish" behavior, where personal achievement becomes a vehicle for broader social impact.

Understanding Other-ish Goals

• Combine personal achievement with social contribution
• Focus on collective impact rather than individual success
• Allow for both personal growth and community benefit
• Emphasize immeasurable impacts over quantifiable metrics

The Challenge of Immeasurable Impact

A paradox emerges in Looney's work: the most meaningful accomplishments are often the ones we can't measure. As she notes:

"Maybe the immeasurability of it is actually helping perfectionists because they can't compare it to something. It's just a feeling and it's immeasurable."

This insight challenges traditional approaches to performance evaluation and success metrics, suggesting that our most significant contributions might exist beyond conventional measurement frameworks.

Practical Applications for Perfectionists

Looney offers several strategies for high achievers struggling with perfectionist tendencies:

1. Balance your ‘goal portfolio’ between personal achievement and social impact

1. Practice intentional savoring of accomplishments, especially focusing on impact on others

2. Recognize that negative emotions can coexist with meaningful achievement

3. Consider reducing measurement frequency of performance metrics

Resources for Further Exploration

• "Give and Take" by Adam Grant

• "Transcend" by Scott Barry Kaufman

• Research by Gordon Flett on perfectionism and mattering

• Work by Jennifer Crocker on contingent self-worth

• Sonya Looney's website: sonyalooney.com

• The Sonya Looney Show (soon to be rebranded as "Grow the Good")

Work-Family Interface: Lessons from Joe Grzywacz

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew Soren spoke with Joe Grzywacz, the Associate Dean of Research and Faculty Development at San Jose State University in the College of Health and Sciences. His research expertise lies at the intersection of work and family life and their profound impact on health and well-being.

Grzywacz recognized early in his career that work can be a challenge to push through, but at other times, it can be a place to flourish and do well. The key difference is how work is designed and positioned to achieve the latter.

Midlife in the United States (MIDUS)

Grzywacz has been deeply involved in a landmark research project called Midlife Development in the U.S. (MIDUS). Since it started in 1995, this national longitudinal study of health and wellbeing has aimed to understand successful aging. MIDUS is unique because it measures social, biological, economic, and psychological factors across disciplines. Today, it is one of the largest studies of its kind, funded by the National Institute on Health.

Grzywacz oversees all areas related to the topic of work within the study - a critical factor for understanding health and well-being, given that the average person spends more time at work than just about anywhere else across the lifespan.

The Design of Work

There are different ways to think about the design of work. The National Institute for Occupational Health and Safety, for example, looks at job characteristics, which, boiled down, include buckets like:

• What are the opportunities workers have on the job to exercise control or decision-making regarding their work?

• How much external pressure or demand is put on workers?

• Is what I am doing meaningful, or does what I am doing matter in a lasting way?

• Am I treated fairly and equitably?

Grzywacz notes that these job characteristics are often very different for black and brown individuals, for younger workers compared to older workers, for men compared to women, etc. The job market is segregated in many ways that tend to benefit some people and not others.

The Impact on Psychological Well-Being

Based on about 40+ years of research, there are substantial consequences when these fundamental characteristics are unmet. These characteristics are tied to a concept called cognitive reserve. If you think of your mind as a muscle, the more you use it, the longer it will stay robust and healthy.

Likewise, many of these job characteristics are linked to how well your cognitive functioning holds up later in life and how physical health plays out in the face of chronic disease.

To Grzywacz, it’s crystal clear that work underlies our health and well-being, even if it takes a bit to catch up to us.

The Work-Family Interface

The work-family interface is all about how our jobs and families intersect. Grzywacz highlights that the two influence each other in various ways - sometimes good, sometimes bad.

On the one hand, we are caretakers and loved ones within a family structure, and on the other, we are operating in an economy that likely requires us also to be a worker. We are often splitting our time to satisfy both roles.

Finding a balance between these two important roles can be a challenge for all of us at one point or another. However, as Grzywacz explains, the synergy between work and life can also be enriching. In the Western world, this works very well. For example, for those who earn a living wage, or even a climbing wage, that’s a form of work-family enrichment because our work life ends up benefitting our family life.

Those with a synergistic or enriching work and family life have higher levels of well-being - and that is associated with less chronic conditions and lower stress levels, etc. A positive work-life interface benefits individuals, their families, organizations, and society.

Cross-Cultural Differences

According to Grzywacz, the research shows that job characteristics are relatively universal across cultural contexts.

By contrast, there are distinctive cultural differences when combining work and family. In the US, we’ve lived a ‘segmented reality’ throughout the industrial area. This means we spend 8 hours a day at work, then come home and attend to home life. In the US, work tends to be viewed as a different space than our family life.

The US is relatively unique in this separation. Other parts of the world see work and family as more integrated. For example, one might say they work for their family, and their commitment to their family is reflected in their work.

The Research on Alienation

Another area of Grzywacz’s research is alienation. This refers to when a worker is separated or alienated from the more significant impact, meaning, or context of their work AND the other individuals who are part of the final product.

The evidence tells us that alienated work is linked to a variety of mental health including depression. We have only recently connected this concept to the biology of successful aging. People with higher levels of alienated work show more wear and tear on their bodies at an organ and tissue level than those who experience less alienation at work.

Final Thoughts

In wrapping up, Grzywacz offers a reflection on pursuing meaningful work. He urges listeners to consider the balance between seeking meaning in work and finding contentment with what they have. He posits that while meaningful work is important, the constant chase for the 'perfect' job can lead to dissatisfaction and overlook the value of other life domains.

For further exploration:

• Mid-Life in the United States - link

Transcendent Values and Peak Experiences at Work: Lessons from Scott Barry Kaufman

In this episode, Andrew speaks with Scott Barry Kaufman about transcendence, humanism, and what Abraham Maslow would have thought about meaningful work today.

Scott has done groundbreaking research on intelligence, creativity, and human potential. He is the founder and director of the Center for Human Potential and the founder of Self-Actualization Coaching. Scott is interested in using his research, podcast, teaching, and coaching to help all minds live a creative, fulfilling, and self-actualized life. His early educational experiences made him realize the deep reservoir of untapped potential of students, including bright and creative children diagnosed with a learning disability.

Over the last few years, Scott has dug deep into the work of Abraham Maslow. In this conversation, we hear why Maslow never would have described our human needs as a pyramid. Instead, our journey to self-actualization and transcendence is more like a sailboat. The hull represents our needs for safety, connection, and self-esteem — keeping us floating on top of the water. Our sails fueled by exploration, purpose, and love — provide us a system of growth that allows us to travel great distances.

As the conversation deepens, Scott shares Maslow's vision for the psychology of the peace table, reflecting on the urgent need to understand human nature, division, and the potential for peace. The episode resonates with wisdom, challenging listeners to reconsider their perspectives on work, growth, and the profound possibilities embedded in meaningful living.

Potential and Limiting Beliefs

Kaufman's interpretation of Maslow's work focuses on being 'fully human' rather than just self-actualized. A central theme here is the concept of potential. Kaufman critiques the conventional, limiting notions of potential shaped by societal influences like education and management and advocates for a more dynamic understanding of potential, emphasizing hope and the importance of recognizing individuals' diverse and often hidden potential. This perspective encourages professionals to look beyond traditional markers of success and see potential as a constantly evolving attribute.

The Sailboat Metaphor: A Journey of Self-Actualization

Kaufman introduces the sailboat metaphor to describe Maslow’s journey of self-actualization. Unlike the pyramid, a sailboat represents the dynamic balance between safety and growth needs. The boat's hull is our system of security, made up of our needs for safety, connection, and self-esteem. This keeps us floating on the water, brings stability, and establishes the vessel for our journey toward self-actualization. The boat's sails are our growth system, made of our needs for purpose, exploration, and love - giving us the power to travel great distances on our journey.

Illustration by Andy Ogden

Kaufman underscores the importance of viewing these elements as part of an integrated system, where each aspect influences and is influenced by the others.

Theory Z

When Maslow was writing, there were debates about Theory X vs. Theory Y in the management literature. Theory X posited that workers are best motivated by a carrot-and-stick approach — punishment for poor performance and rewards for good performance. In contrast, Theory Y suggested that workers are intrinsically motivated and perform best when internally rewarded. Maslow introduced Theory Z, suggesting that workers are motivated by transcendence. This theory implies that beyond extrinsic rewards (Theory X) and intrinsic motivation (Theory Y), there is a higher level of motivation where workers are driven by the desire to achieve self-actualization and to align their work with their highest values. Maslow saw that work could be a place that nurtured human potential, self-actualization, and the integration of personal growth.

Final Thoughts

Reflecting on Maslow's vision, Kaufman discusses the "psychology of the peace table." Just after Pearl Harbor, Maslow witnessed a parade and felt a profound sense of not understanding the forces that drive human conflict, such as the motivations of Hitler, Stalin, and others. This moment made Maslow realize that he wanted to devote the rest of his life to understanding the psychology of peace. Maslow envisioned a peace table where people would sit and discuss human nature, hatred, war, peace, and brotherhood. This vision was driven by the belief that understanding these fundamental aspects of human nature could lead to progress in achieving peace. The psychology of the peace table implies a deep exploration into the aspects of human nature that lead to conflict and division, as well as those that can foster peace and unity. This is the ultimate meaningful work - work that has never been more needed for us as people or for the planet.

For those seeking further exploration:

• "Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization" by Scott Barry Kaufman

• Jane E. Dutton's work on high-quality connections in the workplace - link

• The Psychology Podcast with Scott Barry Kaufman

The Double-Edged Sword of Meaningful Work: Lessons FROM Andrew Soren

In the bustling world of work and productivity, the quest for meaningful work has become a north star for many. But is all meaningful work beneficial?

Andrew Soren, founder of Eudaimonic by Design, hosts the debut episode of Meaningful Work Matters, which delves into the intricate dance between the highs and lows of engaging in work that matters deeply to us.

The Allure of Meaningful Work

Meaningful work is not a luxury but a fundamental component of our well-being. As Andrew elucidates, work that feels significant and worthwhile can enhance our commitment, engagement, and satisfaction. The benefits extend beyond the personal sphere, fostering a culture of creativity, innovation, and altruism within organizations.

The Hidden Costs

The research also reveals the dark sides of meaningful work: the potential for exploitation and burnout. When work has a high moral stake and becomes an obsession or when employers leverage our passion without decent working conditions, meaningful work can transform from a source of fulfillment into a wellspring of dissatisfaction, stress, and burnout.

The Crucial Element of Decency

Central to the discussion is the concept of "decent work" - safe, equitable, and dignified work. Drawing from the principles set by the Industrial Labor Organization, Soren advocates for a balance between meaning and decency. He argues that meaningful work, devoid of decency, can lead to exploitation and burnout. Conversely, work grounded in respect, equity, and security paves the way for true fulfillment.

Navigating the Path Forward

Andrew presents a blueprint for cultivating environments where meaningful and decent work can thrive. We need policies and regulations to ensure decent working conditions for those engaged in meaningful work. In organizations, we can design the cultures, practices, and leadership behaviors that enable those engaged in meaningful work to thrive. At the individual level, we can create interventions to help people understand what makes work personally significant and worthwhile and craft work that makes the most of an individual's strengths, values, and passions.

Your Role in Shaping Meaningful Work

As listeners, we're invited to reflect on our workplace and community roles. Whether you're a leader, policymaker, or team member, this podcast encourages you to consider how you can contribute to a more equitable and fulfilling work culture.

Join the Conversation

Meaningful Work Matters is not just a podcast; it's a call to action. As we navigate the complexities of the modern workforce, let's engage in conversations that matter. Share your thoughts, experiences, and aspirations with us. How do you define meaningful work? What steps can we take to ensure that work is meaningful and decent?

Visit our Resources page for insights and discussions on creating a better world through meaningful work. Together, we can make work a source of joy, growth, and fulfillment for all.

Resources to explore:

• Meaningful Work, Well-Being, and Health: Enacting a Eudaimonic Vision by Andrew Soren and Carol D. Ryff