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Ancient Wisdom in the Age of AI: Lessons from Sara Wolkenfeld

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In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew speaks with Sara Wolkenfeld, Chief Learning Officer at Sefaria, an online database and interface for Jewish texts. Wolkenfeld is a member of Class Six of the Wexner Field Fellowship, a rabbinic alumna of the David Hartman Center at the Hartman Institute of North America, and serves as Scholar-in-Residence at Ohev Sholom Congregation in Washington, DC.

Her current research and writing focus on the intersection between Jewish ethics and advancements in technology, with her work appearing in publications like The Atlantic, First Things, and Religion Dispatches.

Together, Soren and Wolkenfeld explore how ancient wisdom can help us navigate modern challenges, particularly around technology, meaningful work, and finding balance in our lives.

Finding Purpose in Work Through Ancient Jewish Wisdom

Wolkenfeld introduces a fundamental distinction in Jewish thought between two types of work. The Hebrew word, עֲבוֹדָה (Avodah) refers to work without craftsmanship or creativity – essentially, assigned labor. It's the word used in the Bible to describe the labor of enslaved Israelites in Egypt. In contrast, מְלָאכָה (Melechah) describes creative labor – work that you invest in and feel proud of.

"In Jewish thought, the same word: מְלָאכָה (Melechah), is used to describe the intentional work that God put into creating the world in the book of Genesis and the kinds of labor that are forbidden to traditional Jews on the Sabbath," Wolkenfeld explains.

This framework also establishes a rhythm between work and rest that has guided Jewish practice for millennia. Rabbinic sources emphasize that the mandate not to work on the seventh day is inextricably bound to the mandate to work on the other six days. This duality highlights the importance and value of purposeful work as a central part of human existence.

AI, Technology, and Finding the Divine in Our Work

Wolkenfeld goes on to discuss how technology, namely AI, can serve as a partner in meaningful work rather than a threat to it. She argues that what makes us human isn't necessarily the ability to do any job “better” than AI, but rather our capacity to love our work and find meaning in it.

When considering which tasks to delegate to AI, Wolkenfeld proposes asking not whether AI can do something better, but rather: "How do we want to spend our time?" She gives the example of using AI to draft routine emails while reserving more relationship-building communications for personal attention. This approach allows us to choose where we invest our creative energy based on what brings us meaning.

"If AI wants to wash my dishes or organize my cabinets or do my laundry, that's great. Those aren't places where I particularly feel that I channel the divine. But I'm going to keep writing essays because that's something that helps me form and feel I am."

Technology as a Partner in Meaningful Work

Wolkenfeld emphasizes the importance of organizations having a clear mission and strong values to guide technological decisions.

Using Sefaria as an example, she explains how they've used machine learning to enhance access to interconnected Jewish texts. Traditional Jewish texts are "heavily interconnected" through a layering system of references and quotes. Machine learning allows them to surface these connections as links, making complex textual relationships visible to readers without years of specialized training.

However, Wolkenfeld also describes instances where they've chosen not to implement certain technologies, such as chatbots that would provide definitive answers to religious questions. This decision reflects their commitment to preserving the multiplicity of interpretations central to Jewish textual tradition. "Fundamental to the idea of having all these different kinds of texts is the idea that there's generally not one right answer," she explains. "You would be doing it wrong if you came up with one right answer."

Rest, Work, and Setting Boundaries

Returning to an earlier theme in the conversation, Wolkenfeld discusses how the Jewish concept of Sabbath provides clear boundaries between work and rest that can help address modern work-life balance issues.

She notes how our modern definition of "work" often depends on context rather than the action itself – the same activity might be considered work or leisure depending on who asked us to do it. In contrast, the Jewish Sabbath focuses on specific actions regardless of context, providing clearer boundaries.

While acknowledging that strict boundaries don't work for everyone (some prefer integration while others prefer segregation between work and life), Wolkenfeld suggests that having clear organizational guidelines can help, even if they sometimes feel constraining.

This leads to another important insight about meaningful work: "Being in a state of invested, meaningful work doesn't mean that it doesn't still feel like work." Finding purpose doesn't eliminate challenge or difficulty – in fact, wrestling with difficulty can be part of what makes work meaningful.

Leadership and the Human Element in Work

As their conversation nears its end, Soren asks what advice Wolkenfeld would offer leaders trying to create environments where people find both meaning and balance.

Wolkenfeld emphasizes that leaders need to model their commitments, not just talk about them. She shares a Jewish wisdom saying about stepping up to be the person needed when no one else is there. In the context of AI and technology, she interprets this as identifying the uniquely human element we bring to our work.

In a world increasingly dominated by technological tools, Wolkenfeld suggests leaders should focus on what they uniquely contribute that technology cannot replace. When leaders demonstrate enthusiasm for their unique human contributions, they naturally inspire others to do the same.

When asked about her greatest hope for the future of work, Wolkenfeld returns to the ancient wisdom that began their conversation. She finds inspiration in how enduring work has been throughout human history and shares the Talmudic insight that people fundamentally need work to occupy their minds, hands, and souls.

Rather than fearing technology might make human work obsolete, Wolkenfeld expresses optimism about our capacity to find new forms of meaningful work. She believes humans are deeply driven to make a difference in the world, and this drive will continue to express itself regardless of technological change.

Key Takeaways

  • Ancient wisdom provides frameworks for addressing modern challenges, showing that while technology changes, human questions about purpose and meaning endure.

  • When navigating new technologies, focus on core values and mission rather than adopting technology for its own sake or resisting it out of fear.

  • Leaders should model both boundaries and commitment, demonstrating what they uniquely bring to the table that technology cannot replace.

  • Meaningful work doesn't always feel comfortable or easy – the challenge can be part of what makes it meaningful.

Resources for Further Exploration

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Offering and Killing Meaning at Work: Lessons from Petra Kipfelsberger

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In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, we speak with Petra Kipfelsberger, Associate Professor for Leadership and Organizational Behaviour at BI Norwegian Business School.

With her extensive background in leadership research and coaching experience at the C-level, Kipfelsberger brings deep expertise on how leaders can inspire meaningful work. Her research focuses on how individuals and organizations thrive during uncertainty, with particular attention to visionary leadership, meaningful work, and coaching. Throughout the episode, Kipfelsberger shares evidence-based insights on how leaders can authentically communicate purpose and foster meaning, while avoiding behaviors that diminish employees' sense of significance.

Leaders Offer Meaning Rather Than Make It

Kipfelsberger introduces an important distinction in how leaders influence meaning.

She challenges the common assumption that leaders directly create meaning for employees. Instead, effective leaders present opportunities—what she calls "offerings"—that allow employees to discover their own sense of purpose.

This view recognizes that meaning remains personal while still acknowledging the leader's critical role in providing context and vision. When leaders understand this balance, they create environments where employees connect their work to larger purposes without forcing that connection.

Authentic Leadership Starts With Personal Meaning

Kipfelsberger builds on this foundation with a straightforward principle: leaders need to find meaning in their own work before they can help others find it. She puts it simply:

"You cannot give what you don't have."

When leaders genuinely find their work meaningful, their communication becomes naturally energetic and convincing. Their visionary leadership emerges as authentic expression rather than rehearsed technique. Employees quickly sense when a leader truly believes in the vision versus when they're just going through the motions.

Timing Matters

Kipfelsberger's research reveals a surprising insight about when visionary leadership makes the most impact. She found that a leader's vision and purpose communication matters most in the first years of working with team members—with this influence extending up to six years.

This finding has clear implications for how we think about onboarding employees. Rather than treating it as a brief orientation, effective leaders view it as an extended journey of meaning development that shapes an employee's entire experience.

During these early years, consistently communicating vision and purpose creates a foundation for long-term engagement. As time passes, employees develop their own sources of meaning and rely less on their leader's vision.

The Dark Side: How Leaders Kill Meaning

The conversation then shifts to what Kipfelsberger calls "meaning killing"—leadership behaviors that diminish employees' sense of purpose. She offers a common example: when a manager assigns an urgent task with a random deadline, then fails to acknowledge when employees complete it.

Other meaning-damaging behaviors include not providing feedback, ignoring contributions, and trying to dictate meaning rather than offering it.

This concept shares similarities with what Zach Mercurio calls "anti-mattering"—when employees feel invisible or insignificant in their workplace. Over time, these behaviors make meaningful work harder to maintain. Even inspiring visions fall apart when daily interactions communicate to employees that their work doesn't matter.

What Would Viktor Frankl Do?

The discussion explores how Viktor Frankl's ideas about meaning apply to leadership. Kipfelsberger has studied Frankl extensively, and she explains how his concept of self-transcendence transforms leadership approaches.

Frankl's view shifts focus from self-actualization to self-transcendence—finding purpose by contributing to something beyond oneself. This positions leadership as service rather than self-centered achievement. As Kipfelsberger notes, "It's not about me. It's about giving to others, and then this will help me find meaning as a byproduct."

This connects to visionary leadership, as good leaders help employees see how their work contributes to something larger. Frankl's perspective on transcendence echoes themes explored in our conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman, who similarly challenges traditional notions of Maslow's hierarchy and emphasizes the importance of serving something beyond ourselves.

Frankl's emphasis on finding meaning in specific moments also helps leaders connect daily tasks to broader purpose.

Family Businesses Show Meaningful Leadership in Action

Kipfelsberger next shares research on family-run businesses, where employees report higher satisfaction levels. She found this stems from the authentic passion and long-term vision that family leaders communicate.

Family businesses operate with a different time perspective—they make decisions with future generations in mind. This creates a culture valuing people and well-being over short-term results.

As Soren notes in the conversation, this connects to Indigenous wisdom like the "seven generations" philosophy, which teaches that decisions made today should consider their impact on descendants seven generations into the future—roughly 150 years. This principle encourages long-term stewardship, sustainability, and responsibility that extends far beyond quarterly profits.

In family businesses, this similar multigenerational thinking shapes daily operations and creates authenticity that resonates with employees.

Practical Leadership Strategies

Kipfelsberger concludes with practical approaches for leaders who want to foster meaningful work:

  • Start with authentic communication about your purpose, especially during early interactions with team members

  • Frame messages positively instead of using negations

  • Create space for meaningful dialogue, possibly through coaching

  • Connect big-picture vision with concrete, immediate actions

  • Provide timely feedback and acknowledgment

These strategies help leaders avoid becoming "meaning killers" and create environments where employees discover their own sense of purpose.

Kipfelsberger emphasizes that fostering meaning doesn't require grand gestures - simple acknowledgments and regular feedback can make a significant difference in how employees experience their work, ultimately leading to greater satisfaction and engagement.

Resources for Further Exploration

  • Kipfelsberger, P., & Kark, R. (2018). 'Killing me softly with his/her song': How leaders dismantle followers' sense of work meaningfulness. Frontiers in Psychology, 9, 654.

  • Kipfelsberger, P., Braun, S., Fladerer, M. P., & Dragoni, L. (2022). Developing authenticity: A quasi-experimental investigation. Personality and Individual Differences, 198, 111825.

  • Viktor Frankl's book "Man's Search for Meaning"

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The Five Dimensions of Job Crafting: Lessons from Rob Baker

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In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren speaks with Rob Baker, a leading expert on job crafting and founder of Tailored Thinking, a pioneering evidence-based positive psychology consultancy. Named as one of HR Magazine's Most Influential Thinkers (#8 in 2023), Baker is a TEDX speaker, author of "Personalization at Work," and a Chartered Fellow of both the CIPD and the Australian HR Institute. His mission is simple yet profound: making work better and making better work.

Throughout the episode, Baker shares practical insights on how individuals can shape their work to better align with their strengths and values, making small yet meaningful changes that boost performance, well-being, and job satisfaction. They explore concrete strategies for crafting various aspects of our jobs and discuss what managers need to know to support their teams in this process.

What is Job Crafting?

Job crafting is about personalizing and shaping how we do our work so that our jobs align better with our passions, strengths, and interests. Baker explains the concept using a simple yet effective metaphor:

“If you can imagine your job like a jacket or a dress that you buy off the peg, you often hope it’s going to be a good fit for you. You don’t know until you put it on. Job crafting is about shaping that job in small ways to make it a better fit for you as an individual.””

The key insight here is that while approximately 90% of most jobs are fixed (the "color" or "fabric" of the jacket), there are always opportunities to shape around the edges. These small adjustments can significantly impact how we experience our work.

This concept isn't just theoretical - it's backed by substantial research. Baker notes that over 170 peer-reviewed papers have explored job crafting, consistently finding positive outcomes in three core areas:

  1. Performance: People who craft their jobs tend to have more energy and zest, leading to better performance as measured by self-assessments, manager evaluations, and even customer service ratings.

  2. Well-being: When people feel in control of their job and can shape it, they report higher levels of well-being, satisfaction, and engagement. Job crafting can also buffer against workplace stress.

  3. Development: Job crafting is strongly linked to career progression, adaptability, and satisfaction. Those who report crafting behaviors tend to experience greater career mobility and fulfillment.

The Five Dimensions of Job Crafting

Baker identifies five distinct ways people can craft their jobs:

Task Crafting

This involves adjusting the activities you do or how you structure your day. Examples include:

  • Restructuring when you do certain tasks

  • Taking an existing task and approaching it differently

  • Using new tools or technologies to complete familiar tasks

Skill Crafting

This focuses on how you develop and apply your skills and knowledge at work. It might involve:

  • Seeking opportunities to learn new skills

  • Finding ways to use underutilized abilities

  • Adapting your approach to leverage your strengths

Purpose (Cognitive) Crafting

This dimension is about connecting to what's meaningful and purposeful for you:

  • Finding aspects of your work that align with your values

  • Reframing how you think about your role's impact

  • Bringing external passions into the workplace (like starting a running club)

Relationship Crafting

This involves shaping your connections with others:

  • Amplifying relationships you enjoy

  • Fostering connections outside your immediate team

  • Adjusting how you interact with challenging colleagues (what Baker refers to as "energy black holes")

Wellbeing Crafting

This focuses on approaching work from a healthier perspective:

  • Creating rituals that support mental or physical health

  • Establishing boundaries to protect energy

  • Developing strategies to manage workplace stressors

Baker shares the example of a physiotherapist who, finding his work stressful with back-to-back patients, decided to take "100 mindful steps" when walking from his office to reception to collect each new patient. This simple well-being intervention helped him recenter and transition mindfully between patients.

Challenges and Considerations

While job crafting offers tremendous benefits, it's not without challenges. Baker addresses several potential concerns:

Management Skepticism

Some managers worry that giving employees permission to craft their jobs will lead to chaos or people shirking core responsibilities. Baker counters this with evidence:

"The reality the research shows, and this is my practical experience, is that most job crafting is in budgets of five to ten minutes a day, or like an hour a week max. People haven't got the bandwidth, the time, or the energy to go beyond that."

People tend to be realistic about what they can change, and they understand that most of their job remains fixed.

Implementation Without Follow-Through

One guaranteed way for job crafting to have a negative effect is if organizations introduce the concept but don't allow actual implementation:

"If you give people the rhetoric about it, you might give people the training about it, and then you don't allow people to execute...people will say, 'Well, hang on, you asked me to do one thing, and actually you are acting a different way.'"

This disconnect can lead to frustration and disengagement. Baker recommends starting with pilot groups to collect success stories before rolling out job crafting more broadly.

Vulnerability in Trying New Approaches

Employees may feel vulnerable when first attempting to craft their jobs, especially in cultures where this hasn't been the norm. Baker notes that providing support and reassurance during this transition is crucial.

Practical Applications and Implications

How to Start Job Crafting

Baker offers several practical approaches for individuals looking to craft their jobs:

  1. Energy Mapping Exercise: Draw a line with "gives energy" on one end and "takes energy" on the other. Plot your daily tasks along this spectrum, then consider how to amplify energizing activities and reshape draining ones.

  2. Focus on One Thing: Instead of trying to change everything at once, identify one aspect of your job you'd like to improve and start there.

  3. Schedule "Me Meetings": Baker notes that while we attend countless meetings for others, we rarely schedule time for ourselves. Set aside 30-60 minutes to reflect on what you'd like to change about your work.

  4. Reframe Unavoidable Tasks: For tasks you dislike but can't eliminate, consider their deeper purpose and create a system to make them more palatable. Baker shares how he became "frenemies with expenses" by recognizing their importance to the business and rewarding himself with a KitKat Chunky after completion.

For Managers Supporting Job Crafting

Managers can foster an environment conducive to job crafting by:

  1. Creating Space for Honest Conversations: Ask questions like "What are you enjoying about your job?" or "If you could make your job 1% better, what would you do?"

  2. Listening Sincerely: Show genuine interest in employees' ideas rather than merely going through the motions.

  3. Embedding Job Crafting in Performance Reviews: Some organizations have successfully integrated job crafting discussions into regular performance check-ins, focusing on different dimensions each quarter.

  4. Adopting an Experimental Mindset: Encourage employees to try small changes with the understanding that not all experiments will succeed.

  5. Believing in Employee Capability: At its core, supporting job crafting requires trusting that employees can thoughtfully reshape aspects of their work while still meeting core responsibilities.

Connections to Broader Themes

Soren and Baker discuss how job crafting connects to larger workplace themes, particularly autonomy and the post-pandemic shift in work arrangements. They note that job crafting shares elements with Self-Determination Theory (discussed in a previous episode with Ann Bradford [link]), especially the power of choice and autonomy in creating meaningful work.

The conversation also touches on how job crafting relates to the ongoing debate about remote versus in-office work. The backlash against companies requiring office returns after offering flexibility parallels the frustration that can occur when organizations introduce job crafting but later restrict it.

Future Directions and Ongoing Work

Looking ahead, Baker sees job crafting becoming a core skill in the changing landscape of work:

"If you think about pre-pandemic...wouldn't it be great if we could get everyone to top up their well-being and resilience skills? I think job crafting is a skill set that enables people to be able to change and agile flex in terms of how they pursue their role."

Further, as artificial intelligence and automation transform jobs, Baker suggests that job crafting capabilities will become increasingly valuable. He encourages organizations to involve employees in harnessing new technologies rather than imposing changes without consultation.

An intriguing potential application involves using AI tools like ChatGPT to support job crafting - not just for efficiency but for energy:

"Most organizations or most people want to talk about using AI in their own roles, they talk about seeking efficiency. And I'd love people to use the E word, but change it to energy...rather than doing the same things faster, can you bring more energy and lightness to what you're doing?"

Key Takeaways

  1. Job crafting involves making small, intentional changes to align your work better with your strengths, values, and interests.

  2. There are five dimensions of job crafting: tasks, skills, purpose, relationships, and well-being.

  3. Research shows job crafting improves performance, well-being, and career development.

  4. Most people craft their jobs in small increments (5-10 minutes daily or an hour weekly).

  5. Managers can support job crafting by creating space for honest conversations, listening sincerely, and adopting an experimental mindset.

Job crafting offers a powerful framework for anyone looking to find greater meaning and satisfaction in their work. By making small adjustments across the five dimensions - tasks, skills, purpose, relationships, and well-being - individuals can transform their experience of work without necessarily changing jobs.

As Baker reminds us, the question we should all be asking is: "What can bring you more energy?" By focusing on energy rather than mere efficiency, job crafting provides a path toward work that is not just better performed but more deeply fulfilling.

Resources for Further Exploration

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Understanding Our Multitudes: Lessons from Reb Rebele [Parts One & Two]

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In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren chats with Reb Rebele, a psychological scientist, author, teacher, and advisor. Rebele teaches MBA students in Melbourne, Australia and brings over a decade of experience researching positive psychology and organizational behavior at the University of Pennsylvania. Rebele dedicates their career to helping individuals, teams, and organizations improve well-being, enhance creativity and collaboration, and achieve their goals.

In Part One, Soren and Rebele explore the dynamic nature of personality and how understanding our different personality states can help us navigate the complexities of meaningful work. Rebele challenges common assumptions about authenticity and examines ways to intentionally adjust our personality expression to achieve our goals while maintaining sincerity in our work lives.

Breaking Down the Personality Box

As Rebele declares, "nobody really wants to be just one kind of person." Their research highlights how we all possess core personality traits that persist over time, yet contain multitudes of possible ways of being.

This insight challenges the traditional view of personality as fixed and unchangeable.

The data tells us that even the most introverted person experiences moments of high extroversion, and vice versa. These fluctuations stem not just from our situations, but from our goals and motivations in the moment.

When we want to connect with others, we act more extroverted.

When we pursue productivity or achievement, different aspects of our personality emerge.

The Authenticity Paradox

Rebele's work also challenges conventional wisdom about authenticity.

Rather than equating authenticity with behavioral consistency, Rebele’s research suggests that truly authentic people express different sides of themselves based on their goals and context.

Authenticity can become a restrictive box - one we place ourselves in and others place us in. When we demand constant authenticity while assuming someone embodies just one personality type, we limit their freedom to express their full range of experiences and interactions.

Managing Your Multiple Selves at Work

Understanding personality dynamics offers practical strategies for those seeking meaningful work. Rebele emphasizes how tasks that require us to act against our natural dispositions drain additional energy and resources.

Success lies not in avoiding these situations, but in managing them strategically.

Rebele goes on to share an example. "I exercise before teaching, think about my caffeine intake, and ensure I get enough rest. Without these preparations, I tend toward neurotic and withdrawn behavior." These are the kinds of deliberate efforts most of us practice to bring out the right versions of ourselves at the right time.

The Power of Restorative Niches

Personality psychologist Brian Little's concept of "restorative niches" plays a crucial role in managing our different personality states. Rebele recommends developing a recovery menu for various time frames:

  • Two minutes: Deep breathing, window gazing, or quick movement

  • Two hours: Extended breaks for deeper recovery

  • Two days: Weekend restoration

  • Two weeks: Complete vacation disconnection

This systematic approach to recovery helps professionals sustain their energy and authenticity while meeting their work's varying demands.

The Leadership Challenge

Middle managers face particularly high burnout rates because they must constantly switch between different work modes - from one-on-one support to strategic thinking to group facilitation. Yet organizations rarely provide tools to manage these transitions effectively.

Rebele recommends practical approaches like designating "maker days" and "manager days" to group tasks requiring different personality states.

Success depends on recognizing how different tasks demand different versions of ourselves and creating supportive conditions for those transitions.

Looking Ahead

By embracing our multiple selves and understanding the conditions that bring out different aspects of our personality, we gain greater agency in our professional lives. We can move beyond simplistic notions of authenticity toward a more nuanced understanding of how to show up as our best selves in different contexts.

Part 2 will explore collaboration's dark sides, generosity's pitfalls, and strategies for avoiding burnout while making a difference.

In Part Two of our conversation with Reb Rebele, we explore a paradox: while collaboration and generosity are essential elements of meaningful work, they can become counterproductive when not properly managed.

Building on our previous discussion about personality dynamics, Rebele reveals how organizational practices around collaboration and helping behaviors often undermine the very outcomes they aim to achieve.

The Hidden Costs of Being the "Go-To" Person

Rebele's research with colleague Rob Cross reveals that collaborative activities in organizations have increased by over 50% in recent years. This surge represents a fundamental shift in how work gets done.

"Even before the pandemic pushed everybody onto Zoom," Rebele explains, "time spent at work in collaborative activities had ballooned by 50% or more."

The consequences of this shift are counterintuitive.

Through network analysis studies, Rebele and Cross found that employees with reputations for being effective information sources and helpful colleagues often face the highest risk of burnout and turnover. "You become known as the really helpful, smart, good information source person. It sets the seeds for your potential demise in that organization," Rebele notes. This pattern creates a paradox where organizations inadvertently drive away their most valuable collaborators.

The rise of remote work has intensified these challenges.

Rebele points to Microsoft's research on the "triple peak workday," where employees now face three distinct peaks of collaborative activity—morning, afternoon, and a new post-dinner surge. This pattern suggests that rather than creating more flexibility, hybrid work may be expanding the collaborative demands on our time.

The Generosity Burnout Trap

Parallel to the collaboration challenge, Rebele's research with teachers showed that the most selfless educators had students who achieved less than teachers who maintained healthy boundaries.

"We think about self-development often as kind of a selfish activity," Rebele observes. "We discount the fact that if I take that time now, it might make me even better at helping people later on."

This insight challenges the common assumption that more helping is always better, and instead suggests instead that sustainable impact requires balancing generosity with self-care.

Systematic Solutions for Sustainable Collaboration

Rather than treating excessive collaboration as an individual problem, Rebele advocates for systematic organizational approaches.

One example is Dropbox's innovative experiment with a "meeting reset," where the company temporarily removed all recurring meetings from calendars and established new norms around meeting participation. This intervention allowed teams to rebuild their collaborative practices more intentionally.

Rebele also recommends practical strategies for individuals:

Creating a "help network map" to understand patterns of giving and receiving assistance across your professional relationships. This exercise reveals not just who you help, but also identifies potential resources you might be underutilizing.

Developing what Brian Little calls "restorative niches"—spaces and times for recovery between collaborative demands. These can range from two-minute breaks between meetings to longer periods of focused work.

Minutes

  • Deep breaths
  • Look out a window
  • Quick stretch

Weeks

  • Full mental rest
  • New environments
  • Passion project

Hours

  • Proper lunch break
  • Walk outside
  • Exercise

Days

  • Engage in hobbies
  • Time in nature
  • Complete disconnection
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Reimagining Collaboration for Meaningful Work

The challenge, Rebele suggests, isn't to eliminate collaboration but to make it more purposeful.

"We need to manage it well, and we need to think about how to manage it together, because our default behaviors very often lead us into a place where we get more of the worst of both worlds."

This means rethinking traditional approaches to workplace interaction.

For instance, rather than defaulting to standard hybrid work policies focused on days per week in the office, organizations might consider alternative structures like monthly or quarterly in-person collaboration periods.

The goal is to create conditions where both connection and individual work can thrive.

As Rebele notes, "Collaboration is important to the organization...It's where a lot of good ideas come from. It's also really important to employees...It's the social side of meaningful work."

Looking Forward

The insights from this conversation suggest a framework for thinking about collaboration and generosity in the context of meaningful work. Rather than maximizing these behaviors, the focus shifts to optimizing them—creating sustainable practices that enhance both individual wellbeing and organizational effectiveness.

By understanding the dynamics of collaboration and generosity, we can build work environments that support meaningful connection without leading to burnout.

Resources for further exploration

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Indigenous Perspectives on Meaningful Work: Lessons from Adam Murry and Alvan Yuan

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In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren sits down with two researchers who are enhancing our understanding of meaningful work through an Indigenous lens.

Dr. Adam Murry, an associate professor of psychology at the University of Calgary with Ukrainian, Irish, and Apache heritage, and his graduate student Alvan Yuan, a Canadian of Taiwanese descent, offer an exploration of Indigenous perspectives in workplace settings.

Drawing from their extensive research in post-secondary institutions, Murray and Yuan go beyond describing workplace experiences. They provide a comprehensive analysis that challenges existing paradigms of meaningful work, offering practical insights for leaders and organizations seeking to create more inclusive, purposeful work environments.

Their study explores the complex ways Indigenous faculty and staff in post-secondary institutions define, experience, and navigate professional purpose, while also presenting actionable strategies for organizational transformation.

The Research Journey

The conversation begins with the backstory of their research, which emerged from a critical question posed by university leadership: How can we retain and support Indigenous faculty and staff?

Murry explains that this wasn't just another academic exercise, but a deeply purposeful investigation prompted by concerns about Indigenous employees being recruited away from their institutions.

The researchers interviewed 18 Indigenous faculty and staff from universities across Western Canada, focusing on understanding their experiences of meaningful work. Their approach was deliberately collaborative, rooted in Murry's long-standing commitment to research that genuinely serves Indigenous communities.

Redefining Meaningful Work

Through their interviews, Murry and Yuan uncovered an holistic understanding of meaningful work that extends far beyond traditional workplace metrics. For the Indigenous employees the spoke with, work is intrinsically linked to broader concepts of community, ancestry, and collective purpose.

Three key dimensions emerged as central to their sense of meaningful work:

1 Generational Belonging - seeing work as a continuation of ancestral labor and a service to both current and future generations. This perspective transforms work from an individual pursuit to a collective journey of community advancement.

2 Connectedness - not just to immediate colleagues, but to community, land, and cultural context. This connectedness is far more comprehensive than typical workplace understanding of team dynamics.

3 Job Design - finding meaning in work that directly aligns with Indigenous causes or personal cultural beliefs. The job itself becomes a vehicle for cultural preservation and community empowerment.

The Invisible Labor of Indigenous Professionals

Murry and Yuan don't shy away from naming the systemic challenges Indigenous employees face.

They describe what they term the "minority tax" - an invisible burden of additional unrecognized labor. Indigenous faculty and staff are simultaneously expected to represent entire Indigenous experiences while managing traditional job responsibilities, all while confronting deep-rooted colonial structures within institutions.

The researchers highlight a critical tension: organizations frequently seek to leverage Indigenous employees' community-driven values without providing adequate support, recognition, or compensation.

This dynamic often leads to burnout, frustration, and a sense of exploitation.

Pathways to Organizational Transformation

The research offers compelling recommendations for meaningful change. Murry and Yuan advocate for a radical reimagining of workplace structures that goes beyond surface-level diversity initiatives.

Key strategies include:

  • Providing genuine job crafting opportunities

  • Encoding community-focused work into formal job descriptions

  • Creating promotion criteria that truly recognize Indigenous contributions

  • Allowing Indigenous employees to define decolonization on their own terms

Decolonization as a Workplace Journey

The researchers frame meaningful work as a potential avenue for reconciliation - a space where systemic barriers can be challenged and transformed.

They draw on the powerful insight that decolonization is not just an institutional mandate, but a deeply personal process of reclaiming narrative and purpose.

Conclusion

Murry and Yuan invite us to expand our understanding of meaningful work.

They challenge us to recognize that career purpose is a deeply personal journey shaped by cultural context, historical experiences, and collective aspirations.

For organizations seeking greater diversity, equity, and inclusion, this research offers a transformative roadmap - one that honors the rich, multifaceted experiences of Indigenous professionals and reimagines workplace culture through a lens of genuine respect and mutual understanding.

Resources Mentioned

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Beyond Perfect Performance: Lessons from Sonya Looney

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In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren explores the intricate relationship between perfectionism and meaningful work with Sonya Looney, a unique voice at the intersection of elite performance and well-being. As a World Champion mountain biker with two decades of endurance racing experience, NBC-HWC-certified mental performance coach, and researcher, Looney brings both scientific rigor and lived experience to the conversation. Her unique combination of athletic achievement, coaching expertise, and interdisciplinary education allows her to offer distinctive insights into resilience, healthy striving, and the complex dynamics of perfectionism in high-performance settings.

Understanding Perfectionism in High Achievement

Looney introduces perfectionism through the multi-dimensional model developed by Flett and Hewitt, which identifies three key dimensions:

"We're perfectionistic in three ways: We have very high standards for ourselves, we have very high standards for other people, or we expect to meet other people's standards, society's standards, someone else's standards."

This framework helps explain why many high achievers struggle to find satisfaction in their accomplishments, often experiencing what Looney describes as "excessive striving, self-validation through goals, and difficulty in realizing a sense of accomplishment."

The Paradox of Performance and Purpose

One of the most striking insights from the episode is how perfectionism can actually undermine the meaningful aspects of work.

Through her personal journey as an elite athlete, Looney discovered that her most fulfilling moments weren't tied to race victories or performance metrics, but rather to the impact she had on others.

"If I win a race, I don't really care anymore. It's more how can I use this experience? How can I use my bike racing as a laboratory to help other people unlock their potential and find fulfillment in the process?"

From Personal Achievement to Social Impact

Looney's research reveals a shift in how we might approach goal-setting and achievement.

She introduces the concept of "meaningful other-ish goals," building on Adam Grant and Reb Rebele's work on "other-ish" behavior, where personal achievement becomes a vehicle for broader social impact.

Understanding Other-ish Goals
  • Combine personal achievement with social contribution
  • Focus on collective impact rather than individual success
  • Allow for both personal growth and community benefit
  • Emphasize immeasurable impacts over quantifiable metrics

The Challenge of Immeasurable Impact

A paradox emerges in Looney's work: the most meaningful accomplishments are often the ones we can't measure. As she notes:

"Maybe the immeasurability of it is actually helping perfectionists because they can't compare it to something. It's just a feeling and it's immeasurable."

This insight challenges traditional approaches to performance evaluation and success metrics, suggesting that our most significant contributions might exist beyond conventional measurement frameworks.

Practical Applications for Perfectionists

Looney offers several strategies for high achievers struggling with perfectionist tendencies:

  1. Balance your ‘goal portfolio’ between personal achievement and social impact

  1. Practice intentional savoring of accomplishments, especially focusing on impact on others

  2. Recognize that negative emotions can coexist with meaningful achievement

  3. Consider reducing measurement frequency of performance metrics

Resources for Further Exploration

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Beyond the Billable Hour: Lessons from Anne Brafford [Parts One & Two]

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In this two-part episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren explores the complex intersection of meaningful work, identity, and the legal profession with Dr. Anne Brafford. A former Big Law equity partner turned well-being consultant and researcher, Brafford brings unique insights from both her personal journey and her academic research into how lawyers find - or struggle to find - meaning in their work.

Brafford is the owner of Aspire, an education and consulting firm for the legal profession, and a founder of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. Her work focuses on the intersection of inclusion, engagement, and well-being in legal workplaces, informed by both her practical experience as a former equity partner at one of the nation's largest law firms and her academic credentials - a PhD in positive organizational psychology from Claremont Graduate University and a Masters of Applied Positive Psychology (MAPP) from the University of Pennsylvania.

A Journey from Dream to Reality

Brafford's relationship with law began early - at age 11, she already knew she wanted to be a lawyer. As a first-generation college student who went on to achieve her childhood dream, becoming not just a lawyer but an equity partner at a prestigious firm, her story exemplifies both the allure and complexity of pursuing meaningful work in the legal profession.

What drew her specifically to employment law was its inherent connection to human psychology and problem-solving - themes that would later influence her transition into well-being research and consulting.

However, after achieving the pinnacle of success in Big Law, Brafford found herself grappling with questions about meaning and purpose: "After the achievement ran out… then there wasn't much left as far as meaningfulness went."

The Moral Dimension of Legal Practice

Brafford shares a powerful story about her mentor Carol, who demonstrated how lawyers could provide both legal and moral guidance to clients.

In an environment where law is often approached as amoral, Carol stood out by consistently incorporating ethical considerations alongside legal risk assessments.

Moral Leadership in Practice
  • Going beyond legal risk assessment to consider ethical implications
  • Acknowledging the human impact of business decisions
  • Building trust through consistent demonstration of care for broader interests
  • Creating space for moral reflection in client conversations

"My mentor would get involved in very tricky employment issues, like discharge issues always have a lot of moral weight to them," Brafford explains. "You're taking a person's livelihood away from them. But sometimes our clients forget that.

This approach manifested in practical ways, such as advising clients not just on legal risk but on moral implications - like the impact of terminating an employee just before their pension vested. Carol's example gave Brafford "permission and courage to develop more of that moral sensibility" in her own practice.

Identity and Gender in Legal Practice

Brafford's research illuminates patterns in how gender shapes career motivations and experiences in law. While law schools have maintained gender parity for decades with roughly 50% female enrollment, only 20-30% of law firm partners are women. This dramatic drop-off points to deeper systemic issues around how different identities experience and pursue meaningful work.

Her research reveals that women lawyers consistently cite meaningful work as a primary motivator for their careers, while men more frequently emphasize financial success and provider roles. These differences reflect broader societal patterns and expectations that shape how men and women approach their professional lives.

"When work gets hard, men can find more value in their provider role of this is hard, but I'm doing this for my family," Brafford notes. "Women who have not been socialized into that role... when it gets hard and meaningfulness is being drained, there's a bigger question of why am I doing this?"

Positive Changes in Legal Organizations

The conversation reveals encouraging developments in how law firms are evolving to create more meaningful work environments.

The COVID-19 pandemic, coupled with broader societal movements, has catalyzed significant cultural shifts. Law firms are increasingly taking public stances on important social issues and articulating clear organizational values - a dramatic departure from their traditionally neutral positioning.

Brafford highlights one particularly innovative example: a law firm's groundbreaking parental leave policy that challenges traditional hierarchies by offering expanded leave options that apply equally to all employees - not just lawyers. This approach recognizes that meaningful work environments must address both the professional and personal needs of their people.

In part two of our conversation with Dr. Anne Brafford, she delves into Self-Determination Theory (SDT) - a framework for understanding human motivation and flourishing that has profound implications for creating meaningful work environments.

Understanding Self-Determination Theory

At its core, Self-Determination Theory proposes that people share three basic psychological needs essential for optimal functioning and motivation: relatedness, competence, and autonomy.

As Brafford explains:

"We either need to figure out how to satisfy these needs ourselves, or even more so, our context needs to help support those needs."

Relatedness encompasses both close interpersonal relationships and a sense of belonging within significant groups or communities.

Competence reflects the need to feel effective and see that actions impact the environment.

The third need, autonomy, is often misunderstood. "Under self determination theory, autonomy isn't about independence," Brafford clarifies. "It's more about volition and authenticity - do I feel like I'm doing this because I'm being compelled, or do I feel that I am self-authoring, doing it because I am choosing to and because it aligns with my values and identities?"

The Quality of Motivation

Beyond identifying these core needs, SDT revolutionized our understanding of motivation by moving away from simple "on/off" models. Instead, motivation exists on a continuum of quality, ranging from amotivation (complete lack of motivation) through various forms of external motivation to fully autonomous motivation.

"What the theory proposes is that when our needs are satisfied in our context, we are more likely to be autonomously motivated in that context," Brafford explains.

This quality spectrum includes:

  • Amotivation: No motivation or connection to the task at hand

  • External motivation: Acting due to force or external rewards

  • Introjected motivation: Partially internalized but driven by guilt or ego

  • Identified motivation: Actions aligned with personal values

  • Integrated motivation: Full alignment across all aspects of identity

  • Intrinsic motivation: Acting from pure enjoyment or interest

Creating Conditions for Meaningful Work

The research shows remarkable connections between autonomous motivation and meaningful work. "What the research has found is that autonomous motivation is really strongly related to meaningful work - like 0.83 in one study," notes Brafford. "You're just not going to get meaningfulness at work unless you have autonomous motivation."

This insight has profound implications for leadership. Rather than relying on command-and-control, effective leaders focus on understanding what matters to their people and helping create conditions where they can connect their work to their values.

Supporting Psychological Needs in Practice

For organizations and leaders looking to foster meaningful work environments, Brafford emphasizes several key practices:

  1. Get to know people as individuals - understand their values, interests, and priorities

  2. Help frame the significance of work in ways that connect to what matters to them

  3. Structure work to support feelings of competence and growth

  4. Create opportunities for high-quality relationships and belonging

  5. Allow appropriate autonomy in how work gets done

Individual Agency in Need Satisfaction

While organizational support is crucial, Brafford also highlights the importance of individual "needs crafting" - proactively shaping our work to better meet psychological needs. This requires self-awareness and mindfulness about values and needs, along with the psychological flexibility to pursue them effectively in the moment.

Looking Ahead

The implications of Self-Determination Theory extend far beyond individual workplace satisfaction.

When organizations create environments that support basic psychological needs, they see improvements in engagement, wellbeing, performance, and retention. This science-based approach offers practical pathways to make work more meaningful for everyone involved.

Resources for Further Exploration